Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Laws and Relief of Distress. : Appendix Volume III. Minutes of evidence (49th to 71st days) being mainly the evidence of critics of the Poor Law and of witnesses representing Poor Law and charitable associations. With Appendix.

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Poor Laws and Relief of Distress.
Date:
1909
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Licence: In copyright

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Laws and Relief of Distress. : Appendix Volume III. Minutes of evidence (49th to 71st days) being mainly the evidence of critics of the Poor Law and of witnesses representing Poor Law and charitable associations. With Appendix. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

    16/668 (page 6)
    1 Oct. 1906. Mr. Joseph 24777. Is it not the fact that there is a great lack of Broiim. uniformity at present in the administration of poor relief by different boards of guardians ?—That is so. 2477S. If the Local Government Board interfered less the want of uniformity would be greater, would it not ?—I do not desire to see the Local Government Board interfere less in matters of principle. I should be very sorry if they did. I should rather extend their interference in matters of principle than restrict it. I bid you note that paragraph 11 is a note of the council itself, and not mine. I should want to interpret that to mean solely in little matters of detail in the management of union affairs. 24779. Can you give me an illustration of the sort of detail you mean ?—Yes. One that just presents itself to my mind is where small matters of repair are needed to workhouse premises ; I do not think we need trouble Whitehall with an expenditure of a few shillings, or a few pounds up to £50. I merely mention that as an illus- tration of the point; I do not say that £50 is the exact amount. I think in small matters like that the local gua'-dians might be trusted ; and also in the matter of the appointment and discharge of some of the minor oflScials. Things of that kind, I think, might be left to their discretion ; but in other matters I certainly should be very sorry to see the powers of the Local Government Board at all restricted. 24780. {Mr. Booth.) Would you advocate the strengthen- ing of their direct power, or would you leave it rather in the indirect shape ?—I should advocate the strengthening of their direct power. On paragraph 7, which we have adjourned, I think I shall have something to say in that direction. I wish to see the power and the authority of the Local Government Board increased and not decreased. 24781. Perhaps the subject will come on better then. Are you satisfied with the way in which the inspectors of the Local Government Board do their work ?—I am delighted with it. I have not one word to say against it, but everything in praise. 24782. And you would wish it to be enforced ?— Most decidedly so. 24783. {Dr. Doumes.) Can you suggest any method by which a central authority could control the local authori- ties on such matters of principle as you contemplate. I may remind you that the guardians are popularly elected on a democratic basis, and then perhaps you will see the difficulty that I suggest ?—I do not exactly grcisp the point. 24784. It is a little difficult, is it not, for a central authority to control a local authority elected on a demo- cratic basis ?—I take your point now. I submit that the central authority can lay doira certain rules and principles for the guidance of the authority below giving them, within certain lines, absolute jurisdiction—but only within certain lines governing matters of principle. That, again, I think, will come up better on paragraph 7, and I do not want to anticipate what I have to say on that point. The question 24785. (J/r. Gardiner.) Having regard to the many dis- of the size of tricts they have to supervise, do you get as much help inspectors' from the Local Government Board inspectors as you districts. would wish ?—So far as my own experience is concerned we have lacked no assistance that we could possibly desire. Many a time we have asked it, and we have always got it most readily. 24786. As far as your experience goes, is the inspector able to give as much attention to a particular union as you would wish, having regard to the size of his district ?— My experience is that he is. I have nothing to suggest on that point. Efficiency of Local Government Boar.l inspectors. Limits of control of Local Government Board over Local Autliorities in regard to principles. Adoption of Poor Law children by private persons : its 24787. Then the districts are not too large that I know of. -None 24788. {Mrs. Bosanquei.) In regard to the suggestion in paragraph 13 I do not know what is meant by your dangers, and note, The multiplication of the homes of the children abuses. from our Poor Law institutions has much to do with their future life and usefulness ?—The point there is that where the children are sent out first to one home and then to another in quick succession there is a dissipation of the mind, and the future of the child ia prejudiced by having had a number of homes to go to. By the multiplication of the homes you multiply the difficulties in the child's way. 24789. You do not suggest that the guardians should send them first to one home and then tj another ?—No. They do t'lat now, and that is what I want to avoid. Where the child is adopted I want to make, shall I call them the foster-parents—for that is the legal relationship, I suppose—responsible for the child as long as they are able to maintain it, and I want to make them maintain it, and to be able to see that they do their duty. I have known a child have three homes in one year, and that child afterwards has not done well. The children that do well are those that are sent out to a home and there- abide ; in many cases they have turned out excellent men and women, too. I have known instances, because I am particularly fond of children, and I have watched the history of the children in my own union. Where they have been happy enough to secure a home and abide there they have invariably done well. 24790. Are you referring to cases of boarding-out ?— We have no boarding-out. People come to the work- house for children to adopt, as they oaU it, but I am afraid that in sadly too many instances it is a system of white slavery. They take the children between the ages of nine and thirt«en who cannot go out to work, but they use them as little house slaves and nurses in the houre l>etween school. I very strongly deprecate tiukt, and I have done my best to stop it in my own union. 1 think if there were some recognised responsibihty attaching to such adoption these people either would not be so willing to come and fetch them, or having got them they would have to do more justice by them. 24791. Then, as I understand it, these people come and adopt the children and then send them back again to the Poor Law guardians ?—That is so. 24792. {Mr. Loch.) Do you refer in paragraph 13 to the adoption of a child by the vote of a Board under conditions in which the parent is unable to look after it properly ?—I think you have hardly grasped my position yet; I find it difficult to make myself clear. In the practical working of the union the House Committee at every meeting has applications of this character. People apply for children, but they dare not say they want them as servants because the ao;e would not warrant their going to work, so they say they want to adopt the children. I do not believe in the adoption of children of nine or ten years of age ; I do not believe that one in a million would want a child of that age to adopt in the strict sense of the word. Those children are too old to adopt. The people come and fetch them from the guardians in order to keep them in their house, presumably to adopt them, but actually to use them as white slaves, and if they find there is no work to be got out of them they will bring the children back in a month and say, this child does not suit, she is not faithful, or he is not honest, and they want us to take him or her back. I say the future of the child is endangered by that break in its training, and I would rather that these people did not come. But it is difficult to reason with some guardians and to get them not to let the children go, and therefore that is one of the points on which I want a superior authority to come in and to say, If you adopt you must adopt with a certain re- sponsibility. ♦ 24793. WTiat is the age of the children you are speaking of ?—Those that I refer to are from nine to thirteen. 1 f people come to adopt children under that age you may take it that they really want companion.=!hip, or something of that sort, because they could not expect to get any service out of a child of five to nine years of age. 24794. Where are these children resident, in the work- house ?—In the children's homes; we have no children in the house.