Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Laws and Relief of Distress. : Appendix Volume IV. Minutes of evidence (72nd to 89th days) with appendix. [This volume contains he oral and written evidence of the British Medical Association and of witnesses fromn the following provincial urban centres:- Liverpool and Manchester District; West Yorkshire; Midland towns].

  • Great Britain. Royal Commission on the Poor Laws and Relief of Distress.
Date:
1909
Catalogue details

Licence: In copyright

Credit: Report of the Royal Commission on the Poor Laws and Relief of Distress. : Appendix Volume IV. Minutes of evidence (72nd to 89th days) with appendix. [This volume contains he oral and written evidence of the British Medical Association and of witnesses fromn the following provincial urban centres:- Liverpool and Manchester District; West Yorkshire; Midland towns]. Source: Wellcome Collection.

Provider: This material has been provided by London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service. The original may be consulted at London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine Library & Archives Service.

    64/824 (page 44)
    Mr. A. McDougall. The con- ditions to be attached to old age pen- sions. 36545. So as to have uniformity ?—Yes. 36546. I want to ask you what conditions you would 15 Jan 1907 ^'^ggss* as conditions for what we may call pensioners. I ' understand you have been helping a good many people as pensioners one way and another ?—Yes. 36547. You would say they should be of good general character ?—Yes. 36548. You would say they should be over sixty years of age except in a case where there has been incapacity owing to accident ?—I am dealing myself with persons over sixty. I take sixty-five when speaking of Poor Law matters, because there might be difiScuIty in getting sixty agreed to. 36549. I am taking your own view ?—Personally I think sixty years of age. 36550. Unless there has been some accident or some- thing exceptional ?—There are a few exceptional cases. 36551. They all get a medical certificate ?—No. 36552. You would take as a condition that they are unable to support themselves by their own exertions ?— Some of them are earning a little by knitting or some light work. 36553. But they are unable to support themselves ?— They are unable to support themselves. 36554. Do you make enquiries as to their having made reasonable efforts to provide for old age ?—When I go to see a person I say very little about future help, I give a little and then go again. I do not put them on the list till I have had some three or four months' experience of them. 36555. I am only thinking of your condition^?; would you make reasonable provision for old age, belonging to a savings bank, trade union or friendly society, a condition ? —It is frequently the case that there is a little money in the bank that is being kept for burial. That is a reason for helping where there is a little. When a burial club sub- scription has to be paid that is a reason for giving a little more. 36556. You take that into account ?—Yes. 36557. And as to relatives and employers and others on whom there may be some claim, I am speaking of your own cases, the persona! ^matter, do you get help from employers ?—No. 36558. Do you ask them ?—No. 36559. Do you call on the relatives ?—Yes, I sometimes take a good deal of pains to get the relatives to assist. 36560. Does that mean going round to a little group of people ?—Either writing to, or seeing them ; sometimes there are relatives who are not assisting, and I say, You ought to assist; I will do so much if you will also contri- bute. 36561. Take another point; as to the amount, would you have an idea as to what you think is sufficient, I mean sufficient to enable 1he recipient to live decently and in comparative comfort ?—There is almost always something else. I do not give more than 3s. 6d. as a rule, although i have gone up to 5s. 36562. You have before you what is sufficient to cover rent and all ?—Yes, for such rent as they may have to pay. 36563. Three shilhngs and sixpence plus what ?— Something else coming in. 36564. Say 5s. in all ?—About 5s. altogether. 36565. You think that is enough ?—They get through •upon it. 36566. How do you give the allowances that you under- take personally ?—They are either taken by myself or by my daughters ; sometimes they are sent by post. 36567. Practically they act as almoners ?—Yes, they go to see them and take the money. The people always know they will get it next time, but there is no promise of anything like a pension. The last three years I have got about twenty-two or twenty-three pensions from other funds. I was anxious in these particular cases that there should be something certain for them so that they might not be troubled with anxiety. My friend and I carmot promise to continue these payments permanently, but these people always know they wUl get the next payment what- ever happens. The mini- mum living inoome. v i Thp uncer- tainty of charitable pensions. Proposal for special com- mittee of guardians with staff of volunteers to deal with 36568. Granting that to be your charitable method, and granting the want of a committee such as you describe on the part of the Poor Law, do you think you could make a division of labour between such people as yourselves and the guardians on the other hand, you taking cases which are of a better type and leaving the guardians perhaps those who are not of such a good type ?—I did hope in the beginning we should find those who could well afford the money and could spare the time, to take one or two cases and visit them regularly, but I confess that I have not pressed this as the number of cases is not large. 36569. Did you find there were too few people came forward ?—I have said very Uttle about it for a long time. 36570. Do you think if it were better known, and there was estabUshed a recognised system, recognised I mean in connection with Poor Law work, that the system which you have initiated could be extended ?—I beheve if there was a committee appointed to deal with aged persons it might take up such a matter. That is the reason I have been anxious to mention i^. None of these people know that I visit anyone else. I have been all along desiring that there should be a special committee of the guardians to go into the cases of old persons where these matters could be discussed. 36571. These cases that can be treated outside in the manner you have treated them would be cases notified by the guardians and that could be arranged ?—Yes, by a special committee. 36572. Have you thought at all whether a system of visiting on what is called Elberfeld lines could be appli- cable to Manchester ?—I think so, as far as old people are concerned. 36573. I am thinking of that too; would they be people volunteering who would be recognised by the Poor Law or some authority ?—I should like them to be guardians, to be a special committee of the board of guardians to deal with aged persons. 36574. You would not find enough members on the board ?—A number of private persons would perhaps come and assist, not to be upon the board or take part in the management, but to assist in the work. 36575. Then you would have a recognised staff working round this committee of yours ?—Yes, for cases dealt with by that committee I would not have the usual reheving ofiicer to visit. 36576. Practically you will have a staff of your own Possibility of for this class ?—The special committee should have a enhstin<r the staff 0£ its own. I shouli suggest that the persons dealt help of rela- with should, if possible, be assisted in their own homes or fives of aged with relations. poor. 36577. I understand you propose co-operation with relatives in every way ?—In every way : it is astonishing what relatives will do if there is a Uttle something more being done. 36578. Now taking classes lying outside the aged, do you think that a system of visiting roughly on Elberfeld lines in addition to the inquiries made by the staff of the guardians, and so on, would be of service in any of those cases ?—-Those cases in Manchester at first are dealt with by the Charity Organisation and District Provident Society, and they are working with the guard- ians very fairly. 36579. Do you find that co-operation is increasing ?— It is increasing. 36580. You would trust rather to that as your co- operative agent ?—Exactly. 36581. Would you have the development of any system of visitors on any new Unes ?—The Manchester District Provident Society have lately formed a register and asked persons who are doing anything at all towards giving assistance to give the names of those with whom they are dealing ; they have got pretty fairly the names of all those in Manchester who are receiving aid publicly and even privately. 36582. Do you find the Manchester Provident has touch of enough persons to help, for instance in such a scheme as you have before you ?—I think so : they have now an Association of Visitors for their pensioners: those who visit are not to give any money, but they 20 and see the people and take flowers. The Man- chester Charity Or- ganisation and District Provident Societies and their work. Register of recipients of charity.